Lynndie England: "Rumsfeld knew"

In 2005 England arrives for another day in court in Fort Hood, Texas© LM Otero/AP

When did you realize that something wasn't quite right in this block?

Graner told me about some of the stuff they were doing. When we first got there in September the prisoners were already naked, they had them wear women's underwear, and they had them in stress positions. The company that we relieved was doing the exact same stuff. We just took over from them.

Was Graner already a part of that?

There was a three-week ride-a-long where two of our guys would work with two of their guys to get to know the ropes and during those three weeks Graner would tell me how they were doing this and that.

What do you mean by "this and that"?

Pushing them around, stripping them down, putting them in stress positions, yelling at them.

Why did they choose Graner? After all he had a past history of violence.

Graner had a very commanding voice and they wanted him in that tier specifically.

Who do you mean by "they"?

The people from Military Intelligence.

How did you react when Graner told you how the detainees were being treated?

Of course it was wrong. I know that now. But when you show the people from the CIA, the FBI and the MI the pictures and they say, "Hey, this is a great job. Keep it up", you think it must be right. They were all there and they didn't say a word. They didn't wear uniforms, and if they did they had their nametags covered.

Which photos did Graner present to them?

All of them. He showed them on his laptop. He'd say, "Hey, let me show you this, this is what we're supposed to be doing." And they said, "Yeah, we got great results, keep it up, you're doing a good job." He actually got a letter of commendation for the stuff he did.

Where were you when the M.I. guys said, "Keep up the good work"?

I was there, within earshot, or Graner told me about it.

What did you think when you first saw the detainees wearing women's underpants or rubbing feces on themselves. Did you feel sorry for them?

Well, it was kind of weird at first. But once I started to see the big picture, I thought, okay, here come these guys, the OGAs, the MIs or even officers, and they don't even look twice at it. If they approve, then I'm not going to say anything. Who was I to argue?

These photos made you famous the world over. Even the Rolling Stones wrote a song about you. You have become a symbol, the face of this war.

That's how I read about it in the papers. People stare at me a lot. When we talk about the negative things that happened in the war, then Abu Ghraib is one of the first things to come up, and they usually name me by name. Although I was only in five or six pictures, I am the most famous. So I suppose I am a symbol of this war. Unfortunately.

Let's talk about the photos, especially the one with Gus, the man on the dog-leash. Why Gus?

The MPs who escorted him named him Gus because they couldn't remember or pronounce his real name. I know that picture happened first. It was in late October. It was like 10 o'clock at night, so I had just gotten off my shift. It was pretty quiet on the tier and all of a sudden I heard a pounding on the door of the isolation cell below us. I said, "What the hell is that?" and Graner said, "We have this crazy guy in there who keeps shouting that he wants to kill Americans." Gus had been in the cell for four hours already and it was time to bring him out. So Graner said, "You gotta back me up, right? He already had his camera. He always carried his camera with him. Megan Ambuhl and I went down with him. Graner opened the door and Gus is lying on the floor. Graner put the tie-down strap around his neck and said, "Come out of the cell." Gus was crawling on all fours and then Graner asked one of us to hold the end of the strap because he wanted to document the method of extraction from the cell. So I took the strap and he took three pictures.