Lynndie England: "Rumsfeld knew"

She claims to have only followed orders: Lynndie England poses with naked Iraqi prisoners© EPA

Can you understand that people who look at this photo are offended?

Well, they weren't there. And they don't know what went on and they don't know how we felt at the time, in that environment and what we were told to do.

But do you understand the outrage?

To be honest, even if I wasn't there, I might think, "Yeah, what the hell was going on here? What are they doing to him?" But then I'd realize where it was. And then I'd think, "Oh, well, that's like standard procedure there."

Did you feel sorry for Gus?

At the time, I didn't. No.

He was mentally ill.

Well, now they said that he was. But at the time it was never mentioned. The only English he ever spoke was, "I hate you. I want to kill you." So I never really felt sorry for him.

Do you feel sorry looking back now?

To be honest, the whole time I never really felt guilty because I was following orders and I was doing what I was supposed to do. So I've never felt guilty about doing anything that I did there.

Guilt is one thing but feeling sorry is something else.

(Long silence) Like I said, what he was saying to us, and when he was thrashing out at us, I didn't even feel sorry for him at the time. And he's probably out there killing Americans now.

Let us talk about the other pictures, like the infamous pyramid of humans.

None of us knew what Graner was doing. He said he was stacking the men up to control them because it was seven of them in an enclosed area. Once he had got them into that position, somebody said, "That looks odd" and that they wanted a picture. And Graner took pictures too. Nearly everybody took pictures.

What's the sense in making a pyramid out of prisoners? It has nothing to do with controlling them. It doesn't make sense.

At the time I thought, I love this man, I trust this man with my life, okay, then he's saying, well, there's seven of them and it's such an enclosed area and it'll keep them together and contained because they have to concentrate on staying up on the pyramid instead of doing something to us.

You are seen smiling in the picture. What was so funny?

Sabrina Harmon took the picture and she said, "Hey, smile for the camera". So we did. It was a kind of the moment thing.

Have you never felt regret about smiling at a stack of naked Iraqis next to you?

I never really thought about it.

Do you feel ashamed looking back now?

(Long silence).

Can you understand that it's demeaning for Muslim men to be naked in front of a female American soldier?

That wasn't part of the reason of why it was done. It was done to search them and to get them into a jumpsuit.

And why were the detainees forced to masturbate in front of you?

Well, that happened right after. They were standing and kneeling in front of the wall. They still had sandbags on their heads and by this time most of the guards had gone. Frederick and me stayed downstairs to watch them. Freddie went up to the guy on the end and tried to get him to start by touching his arm and moving it back and forth. And when he didn't really catch on to what he meant he took his sandbag off and motioned to him what he wanted him to do and then he put the sandbag back on. And so he started doing it.

You can't even say the word "masturbate".

(remains silent)

You stood next to him and allowed it to happen. Did you not protest just once?

I did. I asked Frederick, "Why are you doing this?" And he told me, "I just want to see if he'll do it." So I was like, "Whatever."

No more?

No. I was like, "Fine, you know, whatever." Then Graner and Frederick tried to convince me to get into the picture with this guy. I didn't want to, but they were really persistent about it. At the time I didn't think that it was something that needed to be documented but I followed Graner. I did everything he wanted me to do. I didn't want to lose him.

Would you say that what happened at Abu Ghraib was torture?

(Long silence and then she grins.)

Is a smile your answer to that?

Torture? Would I say that what happened there was torture? Hm? To the Iraqis? Definitely, being naked. That wasn't only torture it was humiliating. Then having me, a female, point at them, that was double humiliating. I wouldn't say that when we had them running up and down the tier, crawling and just wearing themselves out, that that was torture. It was just to get their mind-set prepped for interrogation. To get them exhausted.

Who told you to soften the prisoners up for interrogation?

The OGA and MI-guys...

...the Other Government Agencies, meaning CIA and FBI...

Don't ask me their names because I don't know. They always spoke to Graner directly.